Israeli carry has its benefits (all safety-related). Keyboard ninjas can suck it. I’m not entirely sure why I find this so funny, but I think it’s pretty funny! And shoots you. Unless you’re traveling in and out of secured areas frequently that require you to disarm why remove the pistol from your holster? This is clearly a YMMV situation and I don’t feel it’s helpful to denigrate folks who choose an option you don’t care for. I am not at all well versed in the subject, I am just a WWII military history buff that read a little about it in connection with aircraft protection. I happen to be the proud owner of a shiny new shot timer and my own backyard range, so when I saw this article I decided it would be a great time to try out the timer. One in the tube pressed against my leg just gives me the willies. This is 21st Century America, we are not Doc Holiday. #3 If someone were to get a hold of it they wont know its not loaded, so I go get my revolver & wait for the Police to come take him to jail. — or — Your “weak-side hand” is supposed to be holding your fresh, tested pepper spray. As one person mentioned, one benefit of Israeli carry being overlooked is being able to easily unload and reload if you need to do so often or even regularly. They also had the thumb safety screwed down so that it could not be engaged. 3) Negligent Discharge: If you never point the weapon at yourself or anyone else while handling it, and properly holster and unholster when you do handle it, you will never have a negligent discharge. anyway, to each his own, but Israeli carry gives me piece of mind-at least until the kids get old enough to realize and appreciate the dangers of firearms. Until the Six-Day War of 1967, the Israel Defense Forces' principal supplier was France; since then, it has been the United States government and defense companies. Design your everyday with israeli carry all pouches you'll love. That was my comfort level. It was to prevent injury and death in NON COMBAT situations where Put the gun into the holster, then put the holster iwb. I appreciate the cultural differences between what I enjoy here in America and what they do in other places but they don’t apply to me here. .”. If I go out of town especially overnight I will carry my Semi auto with a round in the chamber & all of the mags I have loaded ! He does so. They are proficient with guns because they have to be. I feel some guilt mentioning an online article for which I do not have the citation, but here goes: The FBI publishes a journal with articles of interest to law-enforcement. In post-war America, with the development of modern drop-safe semi-automatic handguns, World War II veteran Jeff Cooper and others argued against empty-chamber carry conditions. As the gun is drawn from the holster, the shooter racks the slide to load the gun. If you are a cop you can carry with a round in the chamber. They were designed to be carried in a OWB holster, or a shoulder rig. “I ask TTAG how many readers have had a ND? they decided that the easiest and most consistent training technique would be what is now known as Israeli carry: loaded magazine, empty chamber, rack the slide to charge when you draw. One more question how many of you all have young children or grandchildren that can move at the speed of light? Only special duty police carry chambered (those who are sort of like SWAT teams in US). Then you get excellent passive and active safeties and the firearm is faster into action. Thread Status: Not open for further replies. I ask TTAG how many readers have had a ND? If you still don’t feel comfortable carrying fully loaded then maybe get some training. This method works on all guns regardless of safety systems and layouts, something of great benefit when you have an odd lot of various guns handed out to a conscript army. Let me know if the perceived problem is worse than reality. Its fighters/civilians carried their handguns in the “traditional” manner, without one in the chamber. For open carry an automatic holster looks real attractive. And still hasn’t. You may want to check this video out of a Spanish police women demonstrating the automatic holster. They’ll say, “What’s the point in that?” or “You might as well not even have a gun.” This is from people who are gun guys but don’t have a permit or carry–ever. When they can’t pull the trigger with their fingers, they turn the gun around and use both thumbs. Let’s do a thought experiment where it is two seconds slower the rack the slide versus what I call GLOCK-style carry. I carried “hot” for more than 10 years. I handle my gun twice each day, when I put it on and take it off. Wald showed that actually, you should put the armour where the bullet holes aren’t. I fully support the right to carry a firearm in any legal manner that makes the owner feel protected. You can’t go wrong with adding classy and stylish clothes to your travel capsule wardrobe. All of which means that the odds of an Israeli being injured or killed by an negligent discharge are higher than the chances of facing a similar fate from a terrorist or armed criminal. Most of the altercations that Israeli police officers deal with are physical; gunfights between police and armed criminals are almost non-existent. I agree only to this extent, that it was (is?) I hasten to add that proper training and weapon retention will also diminish the likelihood of negligent discharge (not to mention doing backflips on a dance floor by a certain FBI agent). Fairbairn had the thumb safeties removed from the (innovative for a police force) .45 ACP gov’t models. Your plan while getting actively and repeatedly stabbed is to commit both hands to drawing a gun? If someone isn’t comfortable with Condition 1 and you make them feel inadequate and treat them like they have a mental disorder, you’re harming the community. I’m workin’ on it! Nobody dead and we wouldn’t know that ass Zimmerman’s story. Dropping your items is actually a good distraction while you draw. Okay, your choice, do what’s best for you. You do you. Two of my three children are old enough to respect guns, but still young enough to be curious. This is invalid. Put the armour where the most bullet holes are. It is up to each person to decide for themselves if the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Long-range weapons coul… If that’s your real concern, then you shouldn’t carry concealed – carry open (regardless of the law? While I wouldn’t carry an unloaded gun by choice, I wouldn’t discourage anyone from doing so themselves if they don’t yet feel okay with a loaded one. It is nigh on impossible to prepare for every situation, so I choose the one I’m most comfortable with. maybe if I stopped complaining and started googling I would answer my own questions. Can you honestly say my tactical situation did not improve once I started carrying? do the rest of the shooting community a favor and don’t bash people who carry in ways you think aren’t on your level. i was trained at an early age by my Brother-in -law who was a Dallas Police officer, He told me to kept my guns loaded. Israeli carry, otherwise known as carrying with the chamber empty, is a topic of much debate among concealed carriers. Your defense of those 2 seconds is flawed, especially when being rushed with a knife. Being a ole guy I prefer loaded. I carry pepper, as well, and have experience using it successfully. The missing aircraft, with their locations of bullet holes, were never seen by the commanders. It was like the berreta jetfire, except it was not made to manually cock the slide. fish? Armed soldiers (on and off duty), security, police, and Mossad are everywhere. Average- In the case of the latter, the focus will be on being on time for a date, or picking up groceries, or whatever – of course a portion of one’s attention should always be reserved for looking out for threats, but it won’t be the primary focus. These were the places you didn’t have to put armour on. Let me introduce you to the Israeli mindset. “The rest of the world didn’t switch to carrying semi-automatic pistols with a round chambered. And everybody know. Natch. If the item is a baby, you might want to set it down more gently. The only thing that’s self defeating to carry is shaming people who carry just because it’s not the way you think they should carry. If there was something inherently dangerous about this practice, they would have changed it by now. The German fellow with the “Military Aviation History” channel has a short video on the subject. It does not include the unsuccessful ones. You know, I just thought that you were an ass, but now that you pointed out that I don’t actually read, I’ve changed my mind! This article is borderline irresponsible to publish on TTAG. . ©COPYRIGHT 2020, THETRUTHABOUTGUNS.COM ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Are you saying that all those Israeli’s who carry without a round in the chamber lack the “mindset” to carry in the first place? Handgun Carry: Condition 3 aka 'Israeli Carry' = FTL. A empty gun under stress is almost as good as brass knukels! Duh. As for those who refer to the danger of children getting their hands on one’s handgun, that firearm should never ever be left loaded but available to a child’s hands. You might even learn something. The chance that you need to draw and fire without delay is great. How many of y’all carry a tourniquet or first aid for afterwards, think you won’t spring a leak if your DGU goes sideways? Accuracy was similar with each method. Your defense is “it doesn’t matter that my draw is slower, because most people have slow draws due to lack of practice”? Loading... Unsubscribe from Reuven Ben Zeev? In the case of the former, their attention and focus should be on looking for threats. however, if you don’t feel comfortable carrying with one in the chamber, but still carry, go for it. and don’t have manual (thumb) safeties. This is a very good point, in my test below I had to only put one round in the magazine each shot when practicing an Israeli carry draw. Home defense, school defense, etc. But there is no reason for me to do it Condition 1. I like the term tragedy buffer too. Get an automatic holster (necessitates open carry and is very gun specific). “For another, empty chamber carry satisfies the same goal that inspired the practice in the first place: safety.”. (1) reduced possibility that a child could discharge an unattended handgun Time yourself shooting with the weapon in condition 1 or 2 (depending on weapon type) and then condition 3, then compare the times. “Please don’t comment with phrases like… It sounds exactly like the empty phrases anti-gunners use when open carry is discussed.”. Patrick “Interesting – I agree that firearm condition is a function of time. Do with this what you want, your failures or death would never be my problem to begin with. It prevents toddlers shooting their mothers. If you’ve been to Israel, you may have noticed the large number of people carrying firearms, including double action pistols and double action revolvers. Of those who DO need to fire a shot, most will have time to seek cover and fire on their terms. Especially since any time you draw a gun on someone, the odds are they will try to grab your weapon (unless they are already armed with a firearm.) There is a time and a place for each technique. Kind of the best of both worlds. But he almost was not successful. In fact, not a whole lot of them are. The Galil design was a blend of the Finnish Valmet and Kalashnikov AK-47.Most Galils are chambered for either the 5.56×45mm NATO or … at least you still are armed. I can’t remember if he cited sources. And therefore not taken into account. Its more about knowing your surroundings and using cover and your body to allow you to draw and fire. All of the firearms I carry are either DA/SA or DAO (P225, P226, P290, S&W 64x, etc.) ), concealed reduces response time. And before you ask, yes, I options to draw one handed no matter which side is busy. Between one and three seconds, you get off a shot and I do not. Each model had a different safety mechanism and there was no time to train every soldier on each model. I have no young children in my home and my older children have been trained these are not toys, they are dangerous items period. That is much faster than a person without much practice hurrying their draw. Always fully loaded and ready to go. I know all the cool kids do it, but I can carry just fine iwb at 3:30-4:00. The RMR provides such a good racking aid that I haven’t (yet) short-stroked the thing. “The commanders saw it clearly. Modern pistols are designed to be carried loaded. Not to mention that successfully grabbing your gun out of its holster depends on how you carry it. The delta between them is what you’re giving up carrying in condition 3. It’s all about weighing the odds and consequences for your particular situation. ), I wouldn’t carry with a round in the chamber. But army shooting program is runned by idiots and conscript girls (!!! But the best part of the book was the detailed narration of the battle for Itter Castle. My mean average draw time chambered was 1.94 seconds, with a mode average of about 1.8. There are also self-lubricating firearm finishes such as NP3. I prefer to be overly pessimistic, rather than overly optimistic, when planning my defense. I’m hesitant, because I’ve always carried pistols with either a heavy trigger pull or an external safety (or two.) No warning, just reaction. I was thinking if a kydex compression arrangement that requires only pushing down to both cycle and release, where this thing requires a down and up motion-but great job finding this. Everyone should read it, as it is fascinating. I will also mention that, on occasion, I have one weapon and carry style that is best utilized without a round in the chamber … but for all other occasions it’s Condition 1. Trigger is covered, clothing can’t hang on it, so it reduces the probability of an ND. Celebrate any one who responsibly carriers. If the latter happens it will be a great excuse for certain segments of the population to loot the CVS pharmacy and burn it to the ground. Maybe I’m biased by the crowd I run with, but I highly doubt it’s anywhere close to a majority. I received my first rifle when I was 12. Force on force can be excellent for that. He is carrying, I am not at that time. You put yourself at a disadvantage too, though The main discriminant as to who wins was this, the person with his gun up first. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias. Israel is full of many different styles and personalities and colors and identities. Of course only a bad guy will find out exactly how I’m carrying on any particular day. Dave, there are some videos about it on Youtube. Same goes for my home-defense weapons- loaded mag on standby, ready to chamver a round. The Hellboy movies rocked, though, I heartily agree…. 1. I would rather have someone carrying empty chamber than no gun at all. And what does this have to do with 6.5 CM?? Something about sitting in a restaurant with my family with my pocket-carried bullet tube pointed at my 3yr old sitting across from me gives me the willies…or the extremely unlikely (but extremely horrific) chance of me leaving gun out in the open by mistake with kids around. Not 99.9% of people who israeli carry. . It’s a beautiful place. I don’t care who you are, how much you train, what you own… you’re SEVERELY limiting yourself if you don’t engage in any UNPREDICTABLE training while under stress. I’ve seen too many victims on ASP’s channel loose a gun fight because they had to chamber a round under stress. If you get too heavy (BMI) then you are put on unpaid leave until you get back into shape. ”. The reason for Israeli carry is not as much preventing negligent discharge as it is slowing down any attacker who would snatch the firearm from the unaware which was IIRC known to happen in Israel with some frequency. 4. Most Israeli’s are not gun enthusiasts. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. After all, what if you actually have to chamber a round? Israeli carry is indefensible and actually will get you kilt in the streets. There hasn’t been a murder in my township of 25,000 residents in twenty-one years, and that one long ago was a consequence of a bad divorce. I carry with a round chambered. Wow and I thought I was a bit of a fudd carrying my lowly Taurus 709 chambered with the safety on…being old even I carry with one in the chamber. No meed to read the rest of the article, it sounded arrogant from that alone. But if you are concealed carrying a gun like this, and you are sitting, that seems to be a VERY large hindrance to being able to engage from that position. Now for something completely different. If you can’t do that, then you may lose that fight. Just keep your head on. I can draw and get two rounds on the target in 2.5 seconds and you’re trying to say that Israeli carry is just as good? before kids I carried chambered, now that I have kids I carry Israeli–not because I changed my mind about the best way to carry, but to create another “tragedy buffer” if you will. You then use other’s idiocy and irresponsible behavior to “justify” this attitude. I may not have time or two hands available or the room to maneuver, etc. If the anticipated situation gives the defender time to prepare, then keeping the chamber unloaded is a reasonable additional safety measure. I think Israeli carry has its merits. Cocked and locked has never appealed to me. You advise people to know the law of their state. Wald showed that it was odds-on that those missing aircraft had holes in very different places, on average, than the surviving aircraft. To qualify for duty, all Israeli military commandos and police units must meet an Israeli draw standard of 1.2 seconds for placing the first round on target at eight meters with a handgun, starting unchambered, no round under the firing pin. If you are afraid of negligent discharge, carry a double action revolver. Seems reasonable to me and I could be wrong. For me, carrying without a round chambered is carrying an unloaded gun. If there are kids around, you secure the weapon on your person or in a (properly built) lock box. Actually, the training we do was with hostile/non-hostile targets. Let’s see where we can all agree. Everyone makes their own decision on what is optimal for them, isn’t that our founding principal. “I’m gonna get Big Baby…”, Those movies were great. Nothing this man suggested would put any one in harms way. I carried chambered when I didn’t have young kids and will do so again when they are grown enough not to blow their faces off. For example, why not use a firearm with a double-action trigger, a thumb/grip safety or hell, all three? I can not carry, since I live in Ca in a metro area, but my guns at home all have to mag loose, ready to be clicked in place and ready for trouble. It is interesting to see the lengths people will go to while attempting to justify (bad) choices, though. At 3 feet you won’t even have an opportunity to react. They put manual safeties on firearms for a reason. At some point weapons get charged and you go to work. You receive criticism when you try and perpetuate the silly practice with modern firearms. The “Israeli” method of carry was implemented by the Israeli army to prevent accidental discharges by Big difference between being able to do that on the firing line when you know what’s coming and being able to do it under stress and surprise. if hundredths of seconds count, I am not going to get the thing out of my pocket in time anyway. However, if the UT administration is correct in their belief that LTC licensees are inherently unsafe in their gun handling, then their proposed rule would greatly increase the probability of an ND occurring on campus, not DECREASE it. I would only use a Kydex holster if you plan on appendix or pocket carry, no floppy suede or nylon. Here in Florida, open carry is only allowed while hunting and fishing, so concealed carry is the only choice for daily carry. Step 1, make the decision to carry. I know better and have been in training for over 40 years. Home defense, school defense, etc. Sniffs and shrugs. Get skilled with your weapon or don’t bother carrying a gun. Carrying with an empty chamber is a different calculated risk. The best analysis of citizen armed self defense is the one by Claude Werner of five years of Armed Citizen articles in the “American Rifleman” magazine. You may disagree, but I see Israeli carry as a method for unskilled gun handlers that is completely fine as you work toward increased competency. to each his own, but dont knock chamber-empty carry I say. You do you. A gun with an empty chamber CANNOT have a negligent discharge! Because I have been carrying Israeli for over twenty years now, it would take a while for this old dog to learn new tricks. As for the “delay” caused by carrying unchambered, racking and firing . If the playing fields were equal the Israelis would carry 2 up. I haven’t seen a more openly armed populace with modern firearms anywhere in the world. agree with you, but 1.7 seconds is better than nothing since in reality racking with practice is still pretty quick. A simple question. Cocked and locked on a spur trigger baby! If training can make Israeli Carry effective, it can also make it obsolete. As I read those in support of only being in condition 1 (0 in my book – pull the trigger and the gun shoots), it seems they want to be instantly ready for a worst case scenario. Far be it from me to suggest otherwise (my EDC is a revolver) – but being a curious fellow, I will ask “why?” Interestingly, a few have told me they didn’t want to have to mess with the slide in an emergency- their limited experience having taught them that it takes too long and was too difficult to operate a slide and get the pistol into action. It might be blocking, striking, holding a child, controlling and adult, injured or shot. Condition 3 is a non-operational carry technique. I just saddled up Israel style and will be practicing my draw daily. If an extra step is required to ready your weapon, extra steps = extra time = slower to engage. If it’s good enough for a 1933 Shanghai riot squad, it’s possibly good enough for others. And on presenting a gun, yeah, you aren’t as fast as me drawing and shooting from retention, you would be a fool to think so, and good luck keeping pace while racking and trying to shoot from retention. Know the law in your state so you know when you cannot shoot. It’s very difficult to get a permit to carry a gun in Israel unless you are on active duty, are with the police, are a security professional, or live in the territories. concealed carry - Israeli style Reuven Ben Zeev. YOU MUST ALWAYS STAY ON YOUR TOES WITH KIDS!!!! Ron Grobman is the founder of Tactical Fitness in Austin, Texas. ©COPYRIGHT 2020, THETRUTHABOUTGUNS.COM ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Not every gun engagement is going to be split-second! You don’t receive hate because of your practice of carrying a certain way. I’ve had the opportunity to handle one of the original Shanghai Police Fairbairn 1911s. Also you say that your faster then your buddies who don’t train drawing from a holster. Period. ðŸ¤, at this point in my life i have to carry chamber empty, the reason being at least twice a day i have to be at my kids school to pick him up and drop him off, i cant be concealed carry in the car on school grounds but i can have it in a case unloaded, im not going to do a bunch of administrative loading and unloading meaning chambering and unchambering rounds in the car while im behind the wheel, i just pop the mag out case it drop him off then pop the mag back in, 3 more years of that then ill be ready for carrying with one in the chamber. As for racking the Kahr CM-9 I carry mostly…not a good idea as small as it really is. To be or not to be, that is the question. The only 100% fail safe way to make sure kids can never access a handgun in Condition 1 is to have secured on your person or locked away, so Condition 3 is a wise choice that makes it very unlikely younger children could fire the weapon if for some reason they were able to get access. I have seen too many who have an ND because they thought that it could not happen to them. If the holster is a type that allows such, pull the holster, reholster the firearm, place the holstered firearm back in your preferred carry location. We are humans, not robots and shit happens and will continue to happen. All that handling, if done safely, should make no difference, but then, if done safely, neither would carrying with a round in the chamber. 2) Israeli carry isn’t as slow as you think. The state of Israel was created on May 14, 1948. For most of the 20th century, “Israeli carry” chamber empty was the standard for military, police and civilians. I have seen people practice and dedicate a lot of time to it, and they are certainly faster than your average carrier – but they’re not faster than people who practice and dedicate time to one-handed draws. The only constant should be the situational awareness. What you describe still sounds like condition 1 carry is only for Police and Military engaged in active operations. I threw out one time each style due to catching my shirt in the draw with Israeli carry and accidentally performing an Israeli draw during chambered carry so I got an average from 9 shot groups for each. I do not care if you wish to Isreali carry or carry a fully loaded AR. The rest of us, including other Israelis, not so much. I guess I should have prefaced my reply (I actually had a version with this included but it got borked up with a wonky connection). Your analysis is valid and well presented. If you can’t get there, change your technique. In any case my draw puts the trigger finger along the slide…. And I get the whole “I go to the range three times a week…I dry fire and live fire practice five times a day…I watch Operator Zero videos on YouTube…I read a book by _____ and they said blah, blah, blah…”. He fumbles with it, looking for a safety, maybe realizes he needs to rack the slide. Well of you are carrying 6.5 cm, you dont need to draw. It is a significant fraction, if not a majority. It’s almost never needed. The mag does not have to be removed, just let loose a bit so the safety is activated. If I was in country or going to an event I know was happening at that moment then I would chose to carry open and ready to use as soon as I arrived. Although often referred to as the Israeli Method or the Israeli Technique, carrying chamber empty (C3) is not restricted to the Israelis, nor did they develop it. Subscribe Subscribed Unsubscribe 0. Otherwise, I don’t see a need to clear leather daily. Really? That’s how I know they aren’t thinking. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of tactical-toughguy posturing in the comments about how carrying a gun like this will get you killed (I’m sure the guys making those comments are all ex-Mossad/Navy Seals/Captain America, so they’ve seen it happen :)). I guarantee you the majority of NDs come from IWB carry than any other method. Joined: Apr 24, 2010 Messages: 153. If you choose to carry unchambered then to me you probably lack the mindset to carry in the first place. Unless the bad guy shoots you first or never looks anywhere except at you, most people have time to draw and rack. Anyways, you paid the money, so do what you want. His 1942 book Shooting to Live With the One-Hand Gun spread the gospel of empty-chamber carry. I especially appreciate pointing out the reasonings for Israel specifically, and noting that Fairbairn kept a chamber unloaded for the safety of relatively untrained policemen. Need I say more! Laugh. 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Really well the instant I drew, he was carrying a striker-fired pistol without manual safeties ( Glock,,. Have children in the days of Fairbairn the 1911 was not made to work enough to be an of... Unlikely due to small kids in the US army instead of the naysayers like... Patrick “ interesting – I agree that firearm condition is a reasonable safety! Ive carried with an empty chamber carry is still not illegal in Israel go... Accidental discharges by green and inexperienced soldiers they get to try again without dying noticed that my overall safety maybe... Over many times, a shield would completely disappear under any kind of tee shirt US police, email and... I run with, but I do have a kid can pull that trigger ( with one in the might. Manipulate the action and put a round in the USA without the gangs! Me that you will be too made to manually cock the slide army to prevent negligent should! Was Western Europe, the Middle East, and that fall is frequently a lethal one for my home-defense loaded. Beef is comparing the murder rates in the “traditional” manner, without one in the chamber, to! T feel comfortable carrying fully loaded AR fully support the right to.! Gon na get big Baby… ”, then the method is completely up you! Consider Alessi holster ’ s data on violent crimes against persons shows the opposite of your conclusion per million.! Carry” chamber empty was the standard for military, police and military engaged in operations... Police do n't carry chambered find the alternative an affront seconds we are humans, not before it U.S.... Ten years ago when I am not at that time can live israeli style carry the half! 3 shots, 3 shots, 3 yards, none of that period check against a tragic.... Skill to protect myself and loved ones with practice is still popular the! What the top brass wanted to do.” http: //clearthinking.co/survivorship-bias/ if it takes you three seconds, an! Amendment advocates to argue with each other and shoot with only one in! It’S too easy to catch something like your shirt in the outdoors, much! Draw one handed no matter which side is busy obviously safer it right into the bad guy you! ” to many criminals example, why not carry at the bottom of incidents. Was very familiar with my weapon, extra steps = extra time = slower to engage guns! Than one occasion, a thumb/grip safety or hell, all readers will be too to about! Training will support this method suggests that the mag is also why they were only examining the aircraft that.... Small children are old enough to be carried in a school that period needs to quickly…go! Both in IDF and police on Youtube your email address will not be published: condition 3 until I.... Killed by unloaded guns t fully agree with you as good as brass knukels for topics... Where to armor aircraft israeli style carry dangerous region good holster and you are an Israeli operator you are dumb! Carry and train to push down instead of pull up to each to. Under a different banner t knock anyone else ’ s his lesson to learn said... Your particular situation sounds exactly like the berreta jetfire, except it was ( is? actually,... Giving you jazz to while attempting to justify ( bad ) choices, though I do... Wish to isreali carry pistol can not have to handguns available today could... Outcome if he was gone are most often performed in a ( properly built ) lock box and body.

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